Sorry that the post is a bit late. I'm battling a mean sinus infection at the moment. So I finally got caught up on FHotD latest post and read through the comments. So it sparked a question that came to my mind. I saw a few people talking about it and wondered what the rest here would think.
Do you think that the government should step in and regulate breeding? Should government require a standard that each stallion or mare has to meet in order to breed? Do you think that breeders should have to obtain a license for each of their stallions through the government? If government did step in and tried regulation do you think BYB would stop? What kind of fines do you think would stem from 'breeding laws'?
AND... for the heck of it. If you had to pick one famous/popular stallion to keep intact which stallion would it be and why?
Fugly Wench of the Day
- The Wenchster
- This is a philosophical blog about.....oh, screw it!!! This blog is dedicated to calling Cathy, the FHotD writer, out on her bull sh*t!
114 comments:
I absolutely don't want the government involved in regulating horse breeding. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and that is really true of horses. My best horse for handicapped kids was a pony workhorse cross. Little mutant was invaluable! Horses get used for a lot of applications, and show horses are a lot of the glut of unusable stock. 1st?
Don't really think I want the government in taking control of who can breed and who can't. But SOMETHING needs to be done.
Hell here and here shows how bad somethings are getting here in ND. Granted well broke horses are still claiming good prices (as they should) but those are just sad...
I don't think I want government regulated breeding. I would like to see some inspections though. The problem is, who does the inspecting?
Something that says, this horse is breeding quality. This horse is pet quality. If you breed your pet quality horse, the offspring doesn't get registered, or something.
One stallion? Okay, how about one stallion per discipline? lol
horspoor - That way I think the breed registries should do inspections and decided that. *shrugs*
I think while control by the government isn't a great idea, there needs to be more regulation inside the breeds themselves, probably in the form of stallion inspections.
Even if you are breeding a crossbreed good conformation is vital for both parents and it's removing the weak, lame, poor tempermented and frail from the gene pool, and keeping the strong, useful and useable.
I have thought for quite some time that the registries should have to collect a breeding license fee along with registry applications.
I thought the fee should be about $100.
And the fee should then be assigned and turned over to like breed approved rescues.
The BYBs are never going away.
It would require some administration which would probably kill the whole deal.
But that was just my thought.
Isn't that what NAIS is trying to do (Put government regulations on farming/ranching industry)? I know the plan isn't for breeding but it will select the big operators as they will be the only ones who can "afford" to stay in any livestock business.
I'm very against government controls over agriculture.
I think crossbreds are fine. You just have to be smart about it. The young gelding in my avatar is half arab.
I still think inspections are a good idea. Even on crossbreds.
I don't think the government so much needs to be involved as the horse associations do. The Friesians and various other breeds are tested before they are allowed to be registered with the association, even if the are pure blood. Look at the consistency amongst these breeds and how great of performers they are. Not only that, I know of one that will literally kick you out if found out you are crossbreeding.
It's registries like this that prevent BYB's from existing for those breeds.
Just one?
"Rooster" Gallo de Cielo.
Speaking as a dog owner (I do not nor have I ever owned a horse), I would not want the gov making the decisions about breeding. I think that if the gov does step in, it will hurt the responsible breeders the most, the BYB's will just keep on going. It's what we've seen in the dog world over and over again when laws are made requiring all dogs over a certain age be fixed, or that anyone with more than X dogs have a kennel license ($$$). In both cases, the scofflaws go on churning out puppies, while the responsible owners and breeders suffer.
Even having the breed organizations certify (or whatever) stock isn't going to stop the BYB's. AKC anyone? All they do is certify that the sire and dam are both registered and so the pups can be registered. Puppy mills churn out hundreds of thousands of AKC registered puppies. Would the horse world do any better (sincere question, no snark involved)? Some of the national dog breed clubs have had moderate success by educating their members, but no one yet has found a way to stop the doggy BYB's and puppy mills.
As a friend of mine says: "it's not a pet overpopulation problem, it's an owner education problem." Replace "pet" with "horse" and I think you've got it covered.
This has to be a cultural change. Education and clear communication of the consequences to Dobbin when owners/breeders are irresponsible are the most likely to work.
I agree with kestrel, what may be a junk horse to one, may wind up being treasure to others. I have a friend who was given an old run down QH gelding. His daughters learned to rid eon that thing and decided they wnated to show. Back then they didn't have the $$$ for a new show horse, so they showed him in AQHA. That horse carried his eldest daughter to the AQHYA Justin Rookie of the year title! I do think however that breeders need ot have more common sense as a whole. I see a lot of studs that have done absolutely nothing in the show ring, have not sired any show babies and really should be gelded.
My main problem with the horse population right now are the idiots who think oh horses are cheap lets go buy one and then they don't educate themselves on proper horse care.
I think that breeders should be held accountable for providing training for their foals. That is the main regulation I would like to see.
I would also like to see less emphasis on young horses classes (futurities).
My BEST lesson horse is a really funny looking gaited appy/morgan cross. I doubt anyone would have approved his breeding, but he is the best horse ever for teaching riders to canter or to give confidence. He is the kind of horse you could never sell from a photo, but yet I have had many offers on him at shows or from visitors to my barn.
Backyard breeders who breed a mare they love to a stallion they think is sweet may not turn out show champions, but they do turn out useful and friendly horses that have lots of one on one attention...and where is the bigger market?
Most of my lesson horses have some pretty severe conformational flaws, but they are great horses mentally.
One thing I really HATE about blogs like Fugly and other online "horse judging" is that you can only pick on looks, and not temperment...I think the trainability of horses will go down as breeders have to focus on breeding horses that can be sold based on their photo rather than on how well they take care of their rider...having government approvals may also encourage this type of breeding.
If the government ( UK or USA) gets involved in the regulation of breeding horses they will make money at it - but everyone else will pay.
With the horse market failing as it is the BYBs will be finding something more profitable to do - no point breeding if it actually makes a loss is there ?
Oh and you can bet that if the UK government got involved they'd compile a database of everyone's info, save to disk (unencrypted) then send it off somewhere by unsecured courier. It'll turn up at a car boot sale three weeks later.
They can't handle the info they have, let's not give them any more.........
Um... why the heck would the government do that? What would be in it for them? I'm being rational here - there's no way the government would bother with something like that, and anyone who thinks they would is naieve. Seriously, the government doesn't have a soft spot for little horsies... so unless doing all that would somehow greatly improve the economy (which I can't see how it would, since horses aren't necessary at all anymore), they're not gonna give a crap.
IF something like that were possible, I'm sure the directive would be aimed at something even more dire, such as the overpopulation and killing of dogs or cats. Frankly, they're just as "unnecessary" right now (luxury), and there's a heck of a lot more of em.
I don't want the government involved. Self-regulation obviously isn't working either as it seems as though the big breed associations only care about the $$ at the end of the day.
Until enough people put enough pressure on the breed associations things will pretty much stay the same, with a little lip service here and there. What will it take to generate that kind of clout?
I'm pretty much stumped. But, I do think that as soon as the gov. steps in and enacts new laws the wrong people suffer for it.
BTW...hope you feel better. I just got over a bad sinus infection and so I feel for you.
I just received a catalog for an upcoming spring sale.
I thought to post some of the things I saw.
This is your country NdAppy. The big Mandan sale.
17 consignments from 1 owner
11 2008 stallions
6 2008 mares
all May of last year babies.
There are 2 additional consignments I believe are entered by this breeders daughter.
1 more 2008 stallion and 1 more 2008 mare.
This is at a glance I have not really dug into it.
There are currently 532 equines consigned.
I do intend to post the number of stallions currently consigned.
Just take me awhile to count that high.
The Kist sale Dena?
NdAppy Yes maam. I looked at that red dun link you posted.
From what I could see nice colt.
I think the government is in our business enough as it is, we shouldn't open the door for them to climb in any further.
~DK
What kestrel said, even if she hadn't been first.
(applause for kestrel)
How do you make an animal a luxury?
Not to the many that own them, they are a necessity.
I don't think a rancher or a legitimate breeder needs some Know-Nothing Bureacrat telling him what to breed.
I like the idea of an AllHorsesregistry, but again $$$$$.
Just to track horses, I guess.
Where will the $$ come from?
But with all the rules and regs already floundering?
IDK, I think Europe/the Brits have done it better. Not perfect, but better.
I am biased that way.
My husband was right about the economy. Very very cold comfort in these tough times.
He predicted this about 12 years ago. He's an ex-farmer. Wish I'd listened to him.
Cruising.
(stallion)
I do not want the government involved in what can and cannot breed.. and I definately wouldnt want the responsiblity of picking one stallion that wouldnt be gelding.
Here's where I disagree with some of you guys...
Your grade crossbreed horses that are excellent lesson horses.. That is absolutely great that they work out so great.. and 15-20 years ago, I wouldnt have taken so much of an issue with breeding them, but right now, the only "type" of horse selling for enough money to make any sense at all to breed for from a business standpoint is well breed horses with serious potiental for specific disciplines... reining and cutting horses, dressage, hunter jumpers.. even western pleasure and and halter horses have taken a big hit.. Arabians arent selling for much either.. Its basic supply and demand..
The mishmash horses that everyone has and loves are the lucky ones, because now, unless its well broke or extremely well bred, nobody wants it.
It costs more to raise and train a average "fugly" for lack of a better term than anyone could ever dream of selling it for.
Times are tight, people cant afford extra horses, training, mistakes, so they are buying very carefully. There are a lot of horses on the market, people are losing their jobs, and the few that are buying have A LOT to choose from.
Just because a mishmash horse CAN make a great lesson horse, or trail horse, or whatever doesnt mean they should be bred...
All my mutts are excellent dogs, but they shouldnt have been born.. doesnt mean I love them any less...
Back in the distant beginins AQHA use to have stallion inspections. I think that would be a nice thing to go back to as well. They do it with warmbloods, why not stock breeds? Backyard breeders I don't think can be stopped, just like the before mentioned puppy mills. I am totally against government involvement. We give up enough freedoms. Ben Franklin had a very famous saying "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Oh yeah and famous stallion, umm do I have to chose? Well I guess Doc Bar if QH and Seattle Slew if TB.
Well, good horses are still selling, and still holding their prices.
It's the middle of the road ones that have been slammed.
Good Paints, Qtrs and Arabs are always in demand.
As to the cross thing....I have a line waiting on my mutt should I choose to sell him. So, I think it's the individual mutt that sells. A good horse, is a good horse. I don't really care too much what the papers say, I can't feel them when I ride the horse. My mutt is registered.
WB's are pretty much mutts. I have a branded, papered Oldenburg imported from Germany. His top line is all Holsteiner, and the bottom Hanoverian. They inspect them there.
Anonymous, my first lesson horse I ever rode was an ex-racing QH. So to say that mutts are the only amazing lesson/barn horse out there is sort of a fallacy. Technically, I think it's all most barns can afford, so that is where that myth perpetuates.
A good horse is a good horse, period, but a registered good horse would find a better home IMO and would have a chance at a better life in the long run.
Keep the government regulation out of it. Just another way for them to tax and mismanage the funds. The government needs to shrink not grow larger, but that is another topic.
Just one? Yikes that is tough. Without thinking too hard about it.
Smart Chic Olena
I agree cinnamonswirl. Papers up the horse's odds. Everything I have is papered. Not because I'm a paper snob...but it's just that much more in their favor should something happen to me.
no but i think anyone that sends a horse to auction or the killers because of some stupid breeding program they ran or some stupid training that they ruined a horse with, should be banned from breeding or training....
Stallions? One? That is really hard.
AQHA - Leo (cow type)
.........Luke at Me (pleasure type)
APHA - Lenas Diamond Chex
.........Far Ute Keno
TB - Secretariat
ApHA - Apache Double
........Tudors Diamond Jim
AHA - KB Omega Fahim
.......Fadjur
87 Stallions. Over 90% color. Buckskin, Perlino, Cremello, Palomino, Black, Dun, and Paint.
Age ranges 1 on up. Several 2-5yrs. of age.
532 slots 52 TBA to be announced no information now of the 532.
That is a lot of stallions for one sale.
Oh and Black Roan, Blue Roan, Bay Roan, Chestnut, Sorrel. And I honestly don't know if I saw a Bay.
Crazy. Might have been 1 Brown.
Wench, try warm salt water up your nose.
Works wonders, if you can handle it.
well, it DOES.
Wow! Good topic, as it examines many angles of the unwanted/surplus horse problem.
A good horse is just a good horse, regardless of breed or color. I think the huge glut of horses is the result of many different factors. Even if the overall quality of horses were to be upgraded, you would still have unwanted ones. Poor training, poor care, neglect, abuse, injuries, bad temperment, etc. all play a part in a horse becoming unwanted.
The government doesn't care about our horses, they can't even regulate their own (mustangs) and it's not their jobs to police everyone and everything. They're too involved as it is. I think people rely too much on the government, whatever happened to regulating ourselves? How lazy have we become?
You will always have the byb's, that is a given.
Social pressure doesn't usually discourage these people, it just makes them more determined it seems. Just look at all the Pit Bull type dogs running around. Like these dogs and other (tough) breeds they are a status symbol, a bragging right, if you will. Whether it's good ol' boys wanting to play John Wayne or women playing My Little Pony, some people just like to tell others that they "have horses". A lot of these people are so ignorant, sometimes I think they deserve to be on Fuglies blog.
The breed registries have an enormous part of the blame in this mess. If they would have stricter regulations and adherence to breed standards, I think it would help. IMO breed registries are like the unions, when they first came into being they were desperately needed and did a lot of good, now they destroy much of what they are involved in. Do they still do good things? Yes, but they screw up more than they fix and it's all about the money now. The futurities don't help either, they create a huge supply of cast offs, as does TB racing.
In short, it's a huge problem with no one way to solve it.
Sorry that went on so long.
Horspoor You are a greedy girl.lol
I think the point of the excercise was to pick either your favorite just because you like it.
Or to pick just one that you thought had the ability to cross the best on whatever.
Wenchster is a sly girl herself you know.
I can't believe you tried to get that many out of 1. ROLMAO
Remind me to never never trade with you unless I am really paying attention.
It was one of each type. lol Hey at least I didn't move on to WB's.
When I saw you went for Secretariat I thought Oh Know She Didn't.lol
Living. No one said anything about bringing the dead back to life.
We are not doing the Frankenstein thing.lol
HorsPoor, stick to the darned rules, please?
Jeesh.
1 does not equal 5, k'?
Well, maybe it does where you come from, you, you ELITIST.
snerk.
ONE stallion? Hmmm...That's hard to say.
I like Quarter horses, so here goes nothing.
It would have to be Three Bars for me.
"Wench, try warm salt water up your nose.
Works wonders, if you can handle it.
well, it DOES."
AGREED! I got a cold on my cruise and went snorkeling (plenty of salt water up the nose opportunities!) and I was breathing so well I never wanted to stop!
---
On another note...
If the AQHA decided that it would do inspections, etc. I'd think they'd need divisions for the horses. A pleasure horse isn't going to look like a barrel racer, and a hunter QH is most certainly not going to look like a reiner. That's where things get complicated for their books IMO. Warmbloods and Friesians do have it very easy in the sense that they generally go into disciplines that are what they are known for.
To me, that would be the only hard part with the AQHA, as the breed standard would be hard to deal with. With a breed so versatile, what do you do with it? They all need to be built a little differently (or maybe it's training, I don't know!)
I think Paint horses need to stop taking outcrops from the QH registries (or did, rather.) I mean, all they are now is a colored QH, and that doesn't fly well with me at all. It was a breed that never got the chance to improve as a breed on its own because it was so eager in taking in a QH with some white on it.
Dunno where that come from. Sorry!
rosesr4ever
What is with you bad kids? LIVING!!!
You haven't heard me say I want Eclipse have you?
Or maybe the Darley Arabian?
Or I suppose I could put the balls back on Exterminator.
If we are going to do this I want War Admiral.
You know what they say Go? If you can't beat em join em.
They have difficulty with restrictions.
Pots meet the kettles
I thought paint horses were colored quarter horses?
Three Bars was a TB wasn't he? Or am I confused.
Wenchster said nothing about alive or dead. I think most of the horses on my list are dead. oops.
It's that decision thing, it's really hard for me to make a choice.
So, if only one...Secretariat, and I'd only buy from the mare lines. lol
CinnamonSwirl
I am going to expose my ignorance here as I don't know I guess I just always thought.
I thought the Paint Horse Registry was created to address all the outcrop Quarterhorse?
Oh I am so ashamed I honestly don't know.
Can you help me understand better please?
Yeah, APHA allowed arabs and tb's for awhile. But I thought to get into the APHA registery, it had to be of registered quarter horse stock.
Okay. So, what I thought, and what is may be very different things. What is the real deal?
Hey Horspoor
I can't remember. Doesn't Secretariat go back to Man O War by way of War Admiral?
Oops, looks like I messed up! My bad on the paints!
Though, what about the Pintos? They look like they are under that same thing with the whole QH look. Why does everything have to look like a QH? It drives me insane. If it the same horse with a different color, they are all the same horse.
The breed that has been kind of messed up by quarter horses, if you ask a purist is the appys. They had a very distinct look, and some really good, and some not so good qualities. Many of them now are just quarters with spots.
I heard they had, or were going to close their books. I dont really keep up on that though.
Pintos can be anything with color. It can be a paint, a tb cross, and arab cross whatever.
You can often double register pinto and paint, or half arab and pinto. It is a color registry.
HP
I just read the grossest thing about Claibourne Farms.
When one of theur Champions passes.
They don't bury the whole animal.
Only Secretariat received that honor as it was referred to.
Normally they bury the head, heart, and hooves, and the rest is cremated.
Yuck.
I am sorry but that is nasty.
Which is why the Pinto is a messed up registry, but I bet it has a ton of QH's in it and always has, even before the outcrops were allowed back in!
---
Dena:
Is it sad I knew that? There were reasons behind it (Legs for speed or some symbolic mess like that.)
I don't know, I'd personally be a little creeped out if I one day had to dig and found only a horse head and some legs!
Thanks CS
The pinto horse association has been popular for registering unusual crosses.
NSH for one. I always wondered though how many different classes they would have to have for halter?
To be fair to all the different types.
HP Totally agree with you on the Apps. Sorry NdAppy and Fern. No offense.
The thing is I only started liking them when I saw I think it was Jokers Plaudit.
I think the Govt. has taken an interest into too much of our lives and we really shouldn't let them in so willingly. Soon this country (USA) will end up Socialist (as it's current office is pushing for in a quiet manner) and then soon after that communism is just around the corner. The more rights we give up the less chance we have of being able to speak our own minds.
I think that each stallion should be registered and certified by it's proper breeding standard. IF found to be gelding material he is gelded on the spot. No chance to wait for how his show performance is.
No grade horses can be bred.
Only certain pre-determined crosses can be made.
**If government did step in and tried regulation do you think BYB would stop?**
First, I am not sure how everyone is classifying a back yard breeder.
The Govt won't even step in to take care of illegal aliens..why would they care about BYB? no pun intended.
They'd have to do many man hours of driving to find these breeders. Most aren't registered and most don't even use a vet or farrier.
The ones that would be punished would be the ones like me that want one breeding from their mare. What business is it of anyone's if I want a foal from my mare? It's not like your taxes are paying for it (Welfare). It's MY burden.
You have issues with other types that want to breed to sell and they are breeding poor quality. All I can say is that the SPCA and the USERL have a busy job tracking these folks down and pray they find neglect.
**What kind of fines do you think would stem from 'breeding laws'?**
The same as what they are now for neglect and abuse. A slap on the hand or a $500 fine. Sometimes the "you are not allowed to own another animal" may pop into play but come on, WHO is really going to keep tabs on these people to make sure?
The Govt can't do it, they are too busy bailing out the banks, auto, other countries, and "minorities" as the president stated.
No money for the rest of us. We must handle our own issues alone.
Picking one stallion? Alive or Dead?
Peptoboonsmal is like top notch for me.
King P234 is the other
CS I kind of thought that might be it.
But I won't lie they lost me when I thought of what someone had to do to get the parts.
Almost seems like some freaky pagan or worse thing.
Well, it is a color registry, there are no limitations other than color.
Isn't the palomino one like that too, no I think they're trying to say palomino is a breed. And isn't there a buckskin registry too?
Dena said...
rosesr4ever
What is with you bad kids? LIVING!!!
You haven't heard me say I want Eclipse have you?
Or maybe the Darley Arabian?
Or I suppose I could put the balls back on Exterminator.
If we are going to do this I want War Admiral.
You know what they say Go? If you can't beat em join em.
They have difficulty with restrictions.
Pots meet the kettles
Hay Dena?
Kiss. My. Grrriits!
LOL
Okay then living... would have to be My Final Notice. He's a gorgeous son of one of my faves-Dynamic In The Dark, he's been shown-with success, his offspring are performing well, he's a purdy kolor, nice confo.
OMG...one of my favorite bumper stickers. Your pagan comment reminded me of it.
"Horse Worship
is it wrong?"
I don't think the government should get involved. However I do think breed associations should have higher standards or some sort of testing.
Bucky I agree with everything you pointed out.
The alive or dead thing says a lot.
Because when people have to only pick from the now it gets harder I think.
Which I think says a lot about the kind of Champions we don't have now.
I love Peptoboonsmal. The heads on some of the wronng crosses are tough but the working always seems to shine through.
And it would be hard to mistake his get for anothers.
CS I owe you an apology. For the bomb.:)
You points were very valid. I did not disagree.
I think I was afraid if you didn't quiet up I was going to say much worse than you.
And I didin't want to hurt Go. That was a rude blow for her.
Still doesn't make it right but I do apologize.
G'Night All.
rosesr4ever
told you you were a bad kid.
laughing my way to bed.
You are funny.
Signed
M. Kettle
Horsepoor said...
Well, it is a color registry, there are no limitations other than color.
Isn't the palomino one like that too, no I think they're trying to say palomino is a breed. And isn't there a buckskin registry too?
There are actually a couple buckskin registry. I think there is the american buckskin and the International buckskin.
My mom flames when someone calls buckskin or palomino a breed.
woohoo. my captcha is pirate!
G'night Dena, of course I'm a bad kid! ha ha
G'night everyone else too, I have to work at the barn tomorrow, muckin' shite, kinda like some of the blogs ha ha. J/K
B. Pot
Hey there Wenchster... saw that you have a sinus infection, sorry and I hope you get to feeling better.
Everyone who suggested warm salt water up the nose is right, it does help. Another thing that helps me(I'm ALWAYS getting SI) is a product from Neil Medical-They make a bottle that allows you to squirt the warm water up your nose easily and it comes with packets of some kinda salt/sodium bicarb? Works like a charm! My doctor's recommended it.
LOL my word verif is whorte. I wonder if that is a loose dessert??
And for stallions that I think should be kept intact! Lets see. I'll do like horsepoor! I can't choose just one. Sorry, just so many worthy stallions, but I'll give my short list.
AQHA- Grays Starlight, Smart Little Lena, Hollywood Dun It, Invitation Only, Rugged Lark
APHA- Colonels Smoking Gun, Color Me Smart, A Tru Rolex, The Clue Connection
TB- Nasrullah, Rough N' Tumble, Secretariat, War Admiral, Man O' War, Affirmed, Bold Ruler, Cigar, Count Fleet.
Okay I'm going to stop now because there are just to many great stallions.
Bexs
Your mom and I are on the same page on that one. It's a color. Good grief. lol
I can't believe I didn't think of Color Me Smart. I almost bred my mare to him about 8 to 10 years ago.
I have a Camiseta Badger daughter I think I may breed a 2 or 3 years. She's out of a Doc Prescription mare. Nice girl. Came out kind of tall though. 15.2H.
Docs Prescription. Really I can type.
"CS I owe you an apology. For the bomb.:)"
Oh, ok. I didn't even notice. Haha. Apology accepted? My brain is fried, forgive me. I'm reading everything in a monotone manner. :x
---
I forgot who mentioned it, but someone talked about Palimono's trying to be a breed.
We had a quiz on horse breeds and our teacher put that one up...we had some people up in arms about that and one guy even went up to talk to her about how it was a color (Bless him, as it was funny.)
To me, to be a breed, you have to have some standard that is being aimed at or is achieved and improving. Sadly, color breeds aren't doing that. Buckskin has become about as special and rare as finding socks in a wal-mart.
OMG, I wrote palimono's...it's a color breeder disease!
I digress, I meant palimino
I believe that you should only breed to better the quality of the breed. Improvement.
In support of that opinion, I would pick VLC.
I think using him as a foundation stud would lower the quality of the quarterhorse enough to provide a reason to breed for the next 4-5 generations. Job security for my grandchildren.
A few points I couldn't keep quiet.
1) Most puppy mill dogs and backyard breeders are not AKC, but CKC and UKC. If AKC has a suspected puppy mill using their registry they will inspect and revoke a license if needed. CKC and UKC does no such thing.
2) It is spelled Palomino. I have a great little double registred QH and Palomino mare who is double breed Zan Par Bar. (That's a QH stallion that needs to return from the dead. What a versitile and athletic horse).
3) The Arabian stallion I would love just one breeding to, but can't because he is dead is Khemosabi. His babies not only had color, but are SUPER smart and trainable. Athletic to a fault.
4) I personally plan on breeding both my mares in the future. Both are good examples of their breed and have no medical problems or bad conformation. However I know their faults. My arab mare needs more neck and a better shoulder, but her hind end is great and her face is dainty and perfect. I will breed to improve her. This is where most breeders don't pay attention. They breed to a big name stallion because that is what is popular. They need to look at their horse's faults and improve them. But the government has too many major issues to deal with without adding horse breeding.
Witez II the Polish Arabian stallion,
Secretariat,
Welcome, the Lippett Morgan
Wapiti, the Appy
oops. Am not sure that Welcome was a Lippett or not!
Good morning all,
A definite new poster here but have posted a couple times on Fugly. I personally think that this blog seems to have a much better concept on reality :)
Anyway, I am not a fan of government regulations on breeding... I don't think that the government has any business getting into something that clearly none of them have a clue about. I believe that education is the key to horse over population, but don't really know where the money would come from to institute such a program.
Also, I think you guys are missing a major player on stallions... Zippo Pine Bar... I mean really, he's an institution :)
Also, something was said about the price of horses right now. I have experience with mostly halter and pleasure horses when it comes to breeding & buying/selling and I know that they have definitely seen a slow down in pricing, especially in the ones that are middle of the road. Your world/congress horses are still selling really high, but the weekend show horses just aren't.
I guess the trust fund babies just aren't feeling this like the rest of us are! BIG SURPRISE!
If the government starts regulating horse breeding, they need to regulate PEOPLE BREEDING FIRST!!!! lol
I forgot to add on my comment what stud I'd like to see intact.. I agree on the Zan Par Bar. I would have loved to see Barbaro be able to produce foals BUT on the same foot it's good he didn't cause we all know how it's breeding that is ultimately leading to the demise of so many TB's when it comes to breaking down, they breed for speed now and not bone.... TB studs I'd like to see intact (kept intact or "ungelded" if it were possible lol) r alive (or fertile) include Bold Ruler , Cigar , Nashua, and Funny Cide.
AQHA studs
Zan Par Bar
Poco Pine
Firewater Flit
French Flash Hawk (Bozo)
APHA
Painted Robin
Like A Diamond
ApHC
Bright Eyes Brother
Prince Plaudit
CinnamonSwirl, thank you for your point on paint horses. My horse is a registered paint and has her whole sire side as QH. I'd love to get her registered as a QH, but supposedly it's hard to get a paint registered with QH if they have too much white or white on certain areas. I've been told anyhow.
Holy crap I forgot RUGGED LARK!!!!
It is getting much easier to register a paint as a quarter horse (assuming that both parents are registered). I don't agree with this at all, because they are letting in the cremello's, etc and I just don't feel like they are really quarter horses. Quarters are supposed to only have white skin on their legs and faces and cremello's are white all over. Also, the standards for the white have gotten a little more loose (I can think of the reining stallion that got his QH papers, Gunner).
I always thought that it was interesting that a paint could be a Quarter Horse but a Quarter Horse couldn't technically be a paint.
My paint has three white legs, mostly white face and just two smaller areas of white (one on her neck, one on her underbelly). Other than that she's mostly bay (tricolor actually).
Sorry, I posted as anonymous above when I mentioned the not being able to double register my horse :)
The ApHCC has breed inspectors (which includes myself), however they dont give 'breeding' rights per say.
We inspect ApHC (US) horses for there ApHCC (CDN) papers. Horses from the states must be HYPP N/N and have no arabian crosses on there papers. We also inspect the f3 and f4 to prove that the horse and papers match up.
More info on f levels
http://www.appaloosa.ca/flevels.html
"The physical inspection by the ApHCC Inspector will determine if the horse meets ApHCC Breed Standards. For example, height of the horse, whether the horse us monochrid or cryptorchid (stallions), whether the horse has an overbite or underbite (stallions and mares) and other information such as base colour, coat pattern, body type, cannon bone circumference, etc. As Appaloosas are bred and the offspring registered in the books of the ApHCC, there will be a natural progression through the Identified Levels 1 - 4. If owners elect to have their horses evaluated, a more rapid transition to Distinct Breed recognition may be acheived. As more Appaloosas have their pedigrees evaluated and physical inspection completed for breed standard verification, more horses will be identified at the higher levels (F3 & F4) and purebred individuals will be identified toward Distinct Breed recognition."
Not that this makes the f4 horses better horses but they are trying to do somthing...
On the paints to quarters registry issue, a paint can be registered as a quarter ONLY if it is either and overo or a solid who has NO Tobiano or Tovero ancestors. The paints parents and grabd parents and so on also will have to be reg with the AQHA. It can get pretty expensive. I have a friend who owned a APHA red dun overo stud who was about 50/50 on throwing colored and solid babies so she went through the process to have him reg with AQHA... took her months and lots of $$$$$
Turn-n-Burn82
Okay, this actually interests me, I have a paint mare. The mares dam was AQHA, the sire was APHA.
I also have a filly out of the paint mare. The sire was APHA, but his dam was AQHA, and his sire APHA.
So basically she's half AQHA. How does AQHA view this? How much AQHA does she have to have to be registered in both associations?
Horsepoor:
From what I know, she wouldn't be registerable as a Quarter Horse because both of her parents weren't registered.
I started the ruckus on FUGLY Horse of the Day ,i told her i was starting a breed registry for
stallions of north america that can for starters have no obvious genetic defect,cryptorchid,hernia,etc-
correct breed standard conformation as verified by a liscensed vet(yes there are many variables) to it and best yet no breeding of said stallion unless an identified buyer is buying the foal -ie inutero foal contracts,and there is a code of ethics the stallion owners cannot breed to just any mare it must conform to same rules-
in all fairness 140,000 quarterhorses were registered last year how many were not registered and had babies .
and 100,000 horses went to slaughter in CAN and MEX same amount as when we had slaughterplants the economy is too blame for it period. but if we had a standard of quality and less and less people bred and actually just bought what horses are here. Responsible breeders will reduce considerably the pain and suffering of all the horses that frankly should not have been bred for -susie backyard mare and that cute pinto stallion that has a huge head big body and small small feet .
blm.gov
another fact americans are spending 36 or 38 million a year on the 36,000 captive mustangs that are yes still producing (double every 4 years and the 30,000 still loose same thing double every 4 years in population-can we afford it? can we afford indiscriminate breeding? in europe they do not have this problem they have had a stud registry for years anyway my site is being constructed im getting it finished up hope to have it running by april 15th 2009 www.americanstallionregistry.com we will be in our growing stages at first ,we all need to kick into help the plight of the abused neglected starving horses in america and we also are giving a portion of registry proceeds to horse rescues . horses are dying in peoples yards that cannot afford to feed them--email me and ill send you some gruesome skeletal pix of a palomino stallion just rescued in Ga. how hes alive dont know -- Mary in the Midwest info@americanstallionregistry.com
So, both parents have to be registered AQHA. So, the double registration is just for crop-outs?
horspoor said...
So, both parents have to be registered AQHA. So, the double registration is just for crop-outs?
From what I understand. AQHA will allow the registry of APHA minimal whites as long as ONE parent is registered AQHA. Just look at Colonels Smoking Gun. He was registered APHA and didn't receive his AQHA papers until 2004 when the One parent reg. rule came into place for the minimal whites. This is direct link that gives that info.
http://www.mcquaystables.com/breeding/stallions/Gunner.htm
Okay, since my mare's dam was registered AQHA, they might consider it? I'll need to contact them. It would certainly open up my options on who to breed her to.
Colonel's Smoking Gun's Dam (Katie Gun) was a registered AQHA mare. He was originally not allowed his papers because he cropped out, but when standards relaxed he was allowed to get them...
I don't think the government should, but I would like breed organizations getting more strict. Inspections, only registering stock that is a good representation of the breed, etc.
Kelsey712 said...
Colonel's Smoking Gun's Dam (Katie Gun) was a registered AQHA mare. He was originally not allowed his papers because he cropped out, but when standards relaxed he was allowed to get them...
Oh okay. I just saw that. There are two Katie Guns, foaled the same year, by the same sire. One is registered APHA which is why I assumed that Katie Gun was also double registered. So I went digging some more in the AQHA rule books and found this for the minimal white breeding stock QH.
The Executive Committee shall have authority to declare
eligible for registration as breeding stock only, a horse whose registration
certificate has been previously cancelled, but, in the majority
opinion of the Executive Committee, is outstanding by performance
or produce, and thus worthy of registration as breeding stock,
though lacking some technical requirement of AQHA rules to allow
it to remain registered.
(1) “Outstanding by performance or produce” shall mean
that the horse, before its certificate was cancelled, attained the designation
of “AQHA Superior Event Horse,” or that one or more of its
offspring attained such designation
(d) The registration certificate of any horse having white
markings beyond the prescribed lines as listed in rule 205(d) shall be
subject to cancellation where the registration application fails to
indicate or misrepresents the horse’s actual markings and the horse
cannot be parentage verified as required by 202(i)(7) and 205(d).
I saw that too, how weird. I guess they figured that if they had them in two breed registrations that they could just call them the same name and not be creative :)
Anyway, I know its a lot easier to take a registered QH and make it a registered paint than the other way around.
Not from doing any research, but speaking just from my experience I've never met a Mr. Norfleet (APHA) baby I didn't like, temperment wise...and most of his get have nice conformation.
That's all I know. :) :)
We just got an older AQHA, and he has Sonny Dee Bar and Red Sonny Dee on his papers and he's built great, but he toes out. Could it be that he didn't start out that way but something happened as he was growing when he was young? Cause otherwise he's built like a brick you-know-what. :)
Now, since this is such an open and caring forum, unlike the OTHER Fugly, can I ask a question and not be bashed?
What do they mean when they say "for breeding stock only." Can't anything breed?? Why do they say that?
Anonymous said...
Now, since this is such an open and caring forum, unlike the OTHER Fugly, can I ask a question and not be bashed?
What do they mean when they say "for breeding stock only." Can't anything breed?? Why do they say that?
-----------------
No bashing allowed.
I'm not positive about the "for breeding stock only" comment. Maybe it means the horse has mobility or other issues that would prevent it from being ridden. I only a guess.
Solid colored offspring of two registered Paint parents, called "Solid Paint-Breds" or "Breeding Stock Paints," are also eligible for registration, with certain restrictions.[3] They are not able to participate in some recognized Paint breed shows, but there are alternative programs offered, and many incentive programs within the registry are available to Solid Paint-bred horses. If a solid-colored horse is bred to a regular registry Paint horse, it is possible to produce a spotted foal. In some cases, such as the recessive Sabino patterns, described below, even a solid colored horse may still carry genes for color. However, in the case of the dominant Tobiano pattern, a Breeding Stock Paint will not carry these color genes, though it may retain other desirable traits.
I meant to post that the section I put on here was from Wikipedia. I don't know a whole lot about paint horses but I do know that breeding stocks are basically just solid colored. They have seperate classes for their breeding stock/colored horses...
The government is involved in too many things already. They don't need to get into a subject they probably will never have a whole lot of knowledge about.
To impact the horse community, you need to get closer to it - within it - by way of the breed registries. The registries should hold inspections and only let the top horses breed. There are a lot of good horses out there that in different economic times would make nice breeding horses - but in this economy, only the best is going to sell for any profit. So the registry needs to make sure that the horses their members are creating are good horses. The good horses are what promote their breed, right? So why are so many of the registries negligent about what gets registered?
A lot of people are saying things like "My appy/draft/tb is a great horse. I can put anybody on him." And that is fine. But just because your weird who-would-ever-think-of-breeding-that mix became a great horse does not mean that we should make more. Not all qh/hanoverian/welsh ponies are going to be as nice as yours. Yours is a nice horse because it was trained well and, most likely, had parents with good dispositions. A purebred horse can be just as good.
This isn't to say that I am totally against crosses either - most of my favorite "breeds" are crosses of some type. But these are all good, proven crosses. These horses are being bred for something. What I have a problem with is people saying "Hey, I love my mare lots and she's pretty, so how about I breed her to your stallion over there?" People who breed to have baby, to have something from their mare who is getting too old to ride consistently, or for some other reason besides trying to make a good horse who will excel in his discipline. If you can do that and take care of one of those other reasons as well, then good for you. If you can't, then don't breed. There are way too many horses right now, and a lot of them were the ones that were being bred for the owners to keep forever.
Times of economic crisis are not the times to be breeding a horse that will be anything less than exceptional.
I just noticed that I got off the original topic...The gist of all of this is: breed registries need to be more stringent in what they will register. People (most, at least) will breed more responsibly once they know that their back yard horses are going to be selling even worse this year without papers than last.
JJ from Life with a horse
stupid blogger won't let me sign in :(
Frenchmans Guy for the living!
My picks are Rugged Lark and Khemosabi.
I agree with horspoor-no government regulation but some sort of inspections. Actually, there should be inspections for EVERY type of animal breeder to cut down on puppy mills, etc.
In regards to the Paint Horse "breed", a lot of the reason it was started is to be able to place papers with stock horse bred horses of color.
The AQHA originally had maximum white rules that prohibited any QH with excessive white from being registered. Since a lot of "Old Fred" horses had excessive white, but were fine examples of stock horses, proponents of these types of horses formed a registry. The books were left open for quite some time. I do believe that to receive APHA papers, in the beginning the horses had to be inspected, just like ALL QH's had to be inspected to receive their papers, if they did not come from already registered stock.
Once the APHA closed their books the only horses allowed to be registered were QH's with excessive white. To be considered for registration with the APHA, the horse had to have at least the minimum required white and have AQHA registered parents.
The AQHA relaxed their maximum white rule once and that allowed several horses that had previously been unregistereable with the AQHA to be registered AQHA and also APHA, this was the beginning of the double registered horses.
Once the AQHA fully implemented their DNA requirements on breeding stock, owners of horses previously unregistereable with the AQHA fought to get the maximum white rule lifted and won. The AQHA no longer has any white rules, since any horse can be DNA typed to his parents proving he/she is in fact of pure AQHA blood. One of the leading proponents to abolish the maximum white rule was the owners of Colonels Smokingun-APHA... aka...Colonels Smoking Gun-AQHA...aka...Gunner. They made sure to have both of his parents DNA typed prior to their deaths and that is how they got Gunner registered with the AQHA.
When the rule was dropped any horse that had AQHA parents with DNA on file could be DNA typed and registered.
The AQHA got more than they bargained for. My aunt and uncle bred a foundation bred mare to a very fancy cutting stallion and ended up with the cutest little sorrel filly...complete with Appy markings on her butt. Thanks to the DNA rule, she received her AQHA papers, but they have a huge stamp on them that says she is NOT DESIREABLE AS BREEDING STOCK. Doesn't say they CAN'T breed her-LOL.
BrownEyedCowgirls is in Pennsylvania...WhoooHoooo!!
TexasPaint
What is your experience of the Frenchmans Guy horses.
I have one. He looks very like his Grandpa. Yep, second line topside.
Handled a few others. Seems to me that they are unable to coordinate the front and their back and both of their brains until they are about 6.
By no means am I bashing. I love them.
I am just wondering what your experiences with them are?
Are mine completely unique in this?
I haven't read any of the comments so far (had a doggy eyeball issue to deal with!!) but I can flat out with complete conviction say NOnononono.
The government has no business in this market. The regulations should be with breeders, and registries, and clubs... It's unfortunate that the major issue with quality in equines these days is that literally everyone is doing it. But it stems from a lack of initiative on the part of stallion owners, and the big wigs that care for the reputation of breed registries around the world (and mostly in the US).
If a stallion owner gets an email from a potential mare owner who'd like a breeding, and they see it's got 5 legs and an ear growing out of it's flank, something needs to be said. But 50% of the time the scenario leads to a quick stud fee, and another foal in a market that's already horribly brutal.
We started out as "BYB's". We've progressed far beyond that. But "claiming" to be a responsible breeder and "informed" means that we should be doing our best to ask the why's and how's behind people's want/desire to breed. When it comes down to it, however, the tastes that vary from the arab industry, to the WB industry, to the QH industry are at the breeders discretion. What I personally consider unfit for my purposes may be the PERFECT candidate for some other show ring. And THAT is why there simply can not be government regulation placed on breed standard. You appoint 1 person to oversee things, you end up with a whole lot of unhappy people...the same can be said for both sides of the fence.
Given my discipline, I would recommend the following website for stallions that need to be kept stallions:
www.acornhillfarms.com
The owner is a top notch rider and trainer.
She actually is the one who trained the pally in my avatar many moons ago.
"The AQHA relaxed their maximum white rule once and that allowed several horses that had previously been unregistereable with the AQHA to be registered AQHA and also APHA, this was the beginning of the double registered horses."
Which makes me beg this question.
Why wasn't the paint registry pretty much gone, then? Maybe I don't get it (I'm trying to, it's been a long week) but if the APHA was made essentially for the old cropped out QH's, accepting them back is pretty much making it worthless. I personally don't get the prejudice of color in the show ring (Well, I do and I don't. Color can effect a way a horse is presented. Could notice somethings easier, maybe.) To me, if you are going to breed with color, you'll do it regardless. So what's the purpose of the APHA now? Just to say a horse is colored? To say that it isn't undesirable?
I don't know, I think the AQHA doesn't make a lot of sense when it comes to some of these things. Clearly APHA is colored QH's...to me it's sort of like the days of white fountains and black fountains. Both are people, so who the hell cares?
Ugh, I make no sense. Some days I wonder about registries.
I just realized that I may come off like I'm arguing with you. I'm not. Just thinking aloud.
---
Another note on registered horses...
Another bonus of registering your horse is that you have the ability to at least track them down if the papers were kept UTD.
Ah, the good and bad of registries! They may not make much sense, but it seems they do give some perks that non-registered horses won't ever have.
CS,
They white rule was just removed a few years ago. It's pretty new.
I always thought they should just have quarter horses, and quarter horses with color. But I guess that could create kind of a mess too.
Harvey Jones had a nice 'paint' stallion he haltered and stood. He may still be standing him for all I know. Can't remember the horses name now. But it was from two well known quarter horses, and it came out with too much white. So, it had to be registered paint. Score for Harvey. lol
Okay, the horse was 'Impress Me Page' I had to go hunt for it.
Oh Crap and Crud. Most of us do not follow direction well at all.
Wenchster said 1 and why?
Gallo de Ciello because since the first time I saw a picture of him I was like "WOW WOW WOW"!!!
And I have always been crazy for a really great Bay!!!
I know they did, but it still makes no sense to continue separating them to me, at least.
JMO, but I think the way it's set up now won't change any time soon. The motivating factor being...of course...money. If they combined the APHA and AQHA some pockets would take a big hit. :)
With the rule about at least one parent having to be APHA in order to register APHA I don't think it's possible to register a foal with two AQHA parents into the APHA any longer, is it? At least, that's the way I understood the new rule.
The friend of mine who has been through this whole registereing apaint as a QH is Debra Brooks. You can check out her website at www.Brookspaintsandquarters.com I do belive she has some information listed on there as to what it takes to go through the process and her email is on there and I am sure she won't mind answering any questions you may have regarding it.... she's a genetics expert too lol I am constantly asking her about colors, homozygous vs hetrozygous and other such questions. I often joke and say she just needs to write a book
I loved Plumb Dry. I was looking at two of the horses they have there now.
Like I said before, I procrastinated, and blew it on my time frame. If I'm going to breed to one of their horses I have to wait till next season. Not such a bad thing.
Wenchster
I know I know. Between baby watch and boogers you have your hands more than full.
Get well Soon:)
Anyway Cathy has mixed up a new batch of KOOK-AID. That broad has brass balls 4Sure.
She is talking about con artists.
Internet fraud.
Made reference again to HorseReunions.com. With the lovley donate button for every major credit card.
Please please pretty please4 make a new post.
Somebody is feeling mighty confident with you being sick and all.
Dena:
Never owned a Frenchman's GUy offspring myself, but I know quite a few people who do and are tickled with them. For my personal future barrel horse I crossed my TB daughter of Cien Feugo onto my ranch/speed breed APHA stallion (well former he passed on). She's 3 now and I am just starting her. Can not say enough about her, but of course my first stallion pic was Seattle Slew, and she certainly has that level of athleticism.
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